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Anthony Accioly
1w ago
@Laeserin, to be absolutely fair, I know you have other ways to keep up with people (I use encrypted lists and custom feeds myself). But the policy of not following folks has consequences for the wider network.
For example, if I follow you, WoT relays won’t be able to translate my trust in you into trust for the people you follow. So none of the good folks you trust would be able to write to my relay. Also, curious users won’t be able to find me or other smaller accounts by checking who you follow. In an unintended way, this contributes to Nostr’s centralisation around celebrity accounts that you are fighting against.
Don’t get me wrong. I totally get what you’re doing here and understand that public follow lists have their downsides. But they also have their benefits. And only following accounts that are equally willing to follow others publicly sounds like a very fair quid pro quo policy in my book.
For example, if I follow you, WoT relays won’t be able to translate my trust in you into trust for the people you follow. So none of the good folks you trust would be able to write to my relay. Also, curious users won’t be able to find me or other smaller accounts by checking who you follow. In an unintended way, this contributes to Nostr’s centralisation around celebrity accounts that you are fighting against.
Don’t get me wrong. I totally get what you’re doing here and understand that public follow lists have their downsides. But they also have their benefits. And only following accounts that are equally willing to follow others publicly sounds like a very fair quid pro quo policy in my book.
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Laeserin
@Laeserin
1w ago
Yo, I'm fine with that. 🤙 Ya gotta do, whatcha gotta do.
Following feeds dark, totalitarian impulses, but I'm a very respectable, recovering anarchist.
I don't do follows, I don't do Facebook, and, no, you can not reach me on WhatsApp.
If your WoT is too retarded to figure out who I trust and who I don't, then you should send your dev back to the drawing board, because the 1990s called and they want their algo back.
Following feeds dark, totalitarian impulses, but I'm a very respectable, recovering anarchist.
I don't do follows, I don't do Facebook, and, no, you can not reach me on WhatsApp.
If your WoT is too retarded to figure out who I trust and who I don't, then you should send your dev back to the drawing board, because the 1990s called and they want their algo back.
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Anthony Accioly
@Anthony Accioly
1w ago
We all do what we gotta do and act according to our beliefs. I don’t use Meta products either, but I don’t think following lists are what’s broken with Facebook, Instagram, etc.
As for other ways to figure out who you trust for WoT, have you even tried it? Devs are more than welcome to contribute to Haven or any other WoT-capable relay, but I really wonder what their attack plan would be. There’s too much noise in Nostr lists and sets to extract a good signal. Plus, many clients encrypt list/set entries (as intended).
Doing it any other way (e.g., scanning all of your notes to infer your levels of trust in others) just puts an unnecessary burden on both my relay and yours for a very niche use case that could easily be exploited. For example, what if I baited you into rage replying
As for other ways to figure out who you trust for WoT, have you even tried it? Devs are more than welcome to contribute to Haven or any other WoT-capable relay, but I really wonder what their attack plan would be. There’s too much noise in Nostr lists and sets to extract a good signal. Plus, many clients encrypt list/set entries (as intended).
Doing it any other way (e.g., scanning all of your notes to infer your levels of trust in others) just puts an unnecessary burden on both my relay and yours for a very niche use case that could easily be exploited. For example, what if I baited you into rage replying
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Laeserin
@Laeserin
1w ago
There is absolutely no statement of trust in most people's follows. Some of them just follow everyone back, who follows them, with a script. Their follow lists are a hot mess.
I gave up on the whole concept, after getting sent pics and replies from people that were so vile, that the relay and media server admins had to delete them. Only to discover that they were being followed by some of my follows. Not to mention, all of the spam and scammers and imitators they follow. People's follow lists quickly grow so large, that they can't even examine them, in their entirety. Full of npubs that they know nothing at all about.
Also because the list kept getting wiped out and I discovered that nobody had bothered figuring out how to measure who you were interacting with; all they can do is restore a list.
I gave up on the whole concept, after getting sent pics and replies from people that were so vile, that the relay and media server admins had to delete them. Only to discover that they were being followed by some of my follows. Not to mention, all of the spam and scammers and imitators they follow. People's follow lists quickly grow so large, that they can't even examine them, in their entirety. Full of npubs that they know nothing at all about.
Also because the list kept getting wiped out and I discovered that nobody had bothered figuring out how to measure who you were interacting with; all they can do is restore a list.
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Laeserin
@Laeserin
1w ago
Have we forgotten how many people followed-back an npub literally named "Reply Guy"? I mean, good grief. Kept that crap in people's feeds for days and drove away a lot of users.
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Anthony Accioly
@Anthony Accioly
1w ago
All your criticisms of WoT (and Nostr’s ever-disappearing follow lists) are valid. And yes, plenty of people follow bots. While people like to take a piss on PGP UX (which, again, is mostly valid criticism), PGP's bad UX and its appeal to security/privacy-oriented types make PGP WoT networks much tighter. Unfortunately, this also works against Metcalfe’s Law... I do understand people who just want to connect and follow lots of other nostriches. They are doing important work as well. So, as every difficult problem in life, we need to find some balance between the two ways of thinking.
I complement my WoT relays with TheForest1, both so that folks outside my WoT can reach out to me and as a fallback during attacks, outages, etc. Charging a few sats and effectively moderating content is certainly a valid approach. Meaning that I’m not a WoT zealot, nor am I
I complement my WoT relays with TheForest1, both so that folks outside my WoT can reach out to me and as a fallback during attacks, outages, etc. Charging a few sats and effectively moderating content is certainly a valid approach. Meaning that I’m not a WoT zealot, nor am I
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