Derek Ross
3w ago
Amethyst will be removing NIP-04 soon. This is great news because NIP-04 for DMs needs to go away, however this will also will make DMing people using Amethyst from Primal and Damus impossible. DMs are a cluster fuck, but it needs to happen. Sometimes you have to rip the bandaid off.
Derek Ross
•
3w ago
Send me a DM on Nostr.
Okay. Which kind?
Should it leak metadata?
Do you want that gift wrapped?
Should we use double ratchet Signal style over Nostr or should we use the MLS implementation?
Thanks!
Okay. Which kind?
Should it leak metadata?
Do you want that gift wrapped?
Should we use double ratchet Signal style over Nostr or should we use the MLS implementation?
Thanks!
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Replies
npub14slk4
@npub14slk4
3w ago
npub1acg6t
@npub1acg6t
3w ago
If you send a DM to somebody that has advertised DM relays, it will use NIP-17. Otherwise it will use NIP-04 as a fallback. You can read DMs using both standards.
I'm not going to change this anytime soon. NIP-04 isn't "broken", it is just not as good as NIP-17.
People should understand that nostr and it's various NIP standards are new things that aren't perfect things and if you want state-of-the-art privacy or state-of-the-art security, we simply don't have it here. We only have state-of-the-art decentralization, which yields a less-than-state-of-the-art censorship resistance.
If all the big clients implement NIP-17, then I will remove NIP-04.
I'm not going to change this anytime soon. NIP-04 isn't "broken", it is just not as good as NIP-17.
People should understand that nostr and it's various NIP standards are new things that aren't perfect things and if you want state-of-the-art privacy or state-of-the-art security, we simply don't have it here. We only have state-of-the-art decentralization, which yields a less-than-state-of-the-art censorship resistance.
If all the big clients implement NIP-17, then I will remove NIP-04.
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npub14slk4
@npub14slk4
3w ago
Oh wow ok I didn't realize that. So if I send another gossip guy a DM, it automatically does it?
Is there any way to know if its using 04 or 17?
Is there any way to know if its using 04 or 17?
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npub1acg6t
@npub1acg6t
3w ago
BTW: for users that use multiple clients, if any of them advertise DM relays, then gossip sends them NIP-17 DMs. If they then switch to the NIP-04-only client they won't see that DM, they will only see it on their NIP-17 supporting client. That fact alone should provide motivation for users to switch away from NIP-04-only clients, and thereby motivation for such client devs to implement NIP-17.
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npub1amtu5
@npub1amtu5
3w ago
Can you please explain this to someone with basic experience in programming but not nearly as advanced? Asking for a friend 🥹
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npub1acg6t
@npub1acg6t
3w ago
There are two standards for DMs over nostr. The original NIP-04 and the more secure newer NIP-17.
NIP-17 says that people need to advertise a kind-10050 event that advertises which relays they receive NIP-17 style DMs on.
So my client, gossip, when you want to send a DM to somebody, it first looks for a kind-10050 for that person. If it finds one, it knows that they are NIP-17 capable, so it chooses the more secure DM standard.
But the slight fly in the ointment is that if such a person goes back to a NIP-04 client (perhaps they use multiple nostr clients) on that NIP-04 client they won't see the NIP-17 DM.
It doesn't make much sense to send a NIP-04 DM in addition to the NIP-17 one for backwards compatibility because if we do, we will never achieve better security.
NIP-17 says that people need to advertise a kind-10050 event that advertises which relays they receive NIP-17 style DMs on.
So my client, gossip, when you want to send a DM to somebody, it first looks for a kind-10050 for that person. If it finds one, it knows that they are NIP-17 capable, so it chooses the more secure DM standard.
But the slight fly in the ointment is that if such a person goes back to a NIP-04 client (perhaps they use multiple nostr clients) on that NIP-04 client they won't see the NIP-17 DM.
It doesn't make much sense to send a NIP-04 DM in addition to the NIP-17 one for backwards compatibility because if we do, we will never achieve better security.
... See more
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npub1xjfd6
@npub1xjfd6
3w ago
cant happen soon enough. Leaving the shitty dm spec in play all this time has been super suboptimal.
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npub1upmh8
@npub1upmh8
3w ago
Using 0xChat for DMs is an option for Primal and Damus users. That’s what I’m currently doing, but it is a bit of a pain to need a separate app for DMs. I’m sure a lot of people won’t be aware of the incompatibilities though so will just miss out on seeing DMs.
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Derek Ross
@Derek Ross
3w ago
I agree. I use 0xchat.
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npub1uy6xa
@npub1uy6xa
3w ago
What's the difference (or advantage) of nip17 over nip04?
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npub174662
@npub174662
3w ago
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npub1nxa4t
@npub1nxa4t
3w ago
It doesn't leak metadata (who send a dm to whom at what time)
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npub1nxa4t
@npub1nxa4t
3w ago
I absolutely do not love that other clients stay with Nip04 until this day. 🫠
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Derek Ross
@Derek Ross
3w ago
It's suboptimal.
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